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Thread: Question for an Inker - Rendering Shadow

  1. #1
    Internet Heel smygba's Avatar
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    Question for an Inker - Rendering Shadow

    Hi all

    Take a look at the image of Gambit below. On the left side of Gambit's face (our right), there is various shadows and form renderings. On the left side of his nose is what I think is a cast shadow. Cast shadows as I understand it should have hard edges to the end of their light.

    What interests me about this is image is the bounding line at the end of the cast shadow shaped like >
    My question being, would you consider this an inking to be correct or an error? i.e. should the bounding line exist.

    I can imagine the Penciller drawing this bounding contour line and either throwing light hatching in or an X for an inker to fill in. And this could be considered a mis-translation into inks. Not other rendering on the face features these bounding contour lines either. However the other lines define form shadows, and thus, they would have feathered edges. However if that whole sectioned was blackened up, it wouldn't display consistent levels with the rest of the image.

    I am thinking the inking should be more like the other two images I have posted of DareDevil and the Joker. There are pure black cast shadows, and then feathered lines for form. However there is no bounding contour lines at the end of these forms.

    Keen to hear how others view this inking decision.






  2. #2
    Will Eisner made a career doing that.

  3. #3
    Jackass of All Trades [Moderator] amadarwin's Avatar
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    Looks like Williams was going for a light and some reflected light while the other two plays primarily off 1 light source. But then again, it might be Jim Lee's influence - he tends to do some crazy hatching with the same effect.
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  4. #4
    I've seen bounding lines in many places and use them myself, especially on cast shadows. I find it helps differentiate them from shadows that define form.

  5. #5
    Internet Heel smygba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    Will Eisner made a career doing that.
    So you're saying its a stylistic choice?

    The way I've read this to use an analogy:

    I post up dodgy anatomy and you reply "Rob Liefeld made a career doing that."

    Just cos Will Eisner did it - doesn't leave me with an understanding if this is a good choice or not. Only that I might mimic Will Eisner.

    I've not found many examples of him doing it either from a quick google.

    Below's one of the few pages where really spotted him doing it.
    Though he does simply use lines on what could be blacked out from what I can see.

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...c10d4a3254.jpg
    https://alainlorfevre.files.wordpres...-eisner-ny.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by amadarwin View Post
    Looks like Williams was going for a light and some reflected light while the other two plays primarily off 1 light source. But then again, it might be Jim Lee's influence - he tends to do some crazy hatching with the same effect.
    Surely that's not Scott Williams and Jim Lee. The colouring is too modern. Its certainly resembling Williams Inking style.

    Plus, I've not spotted Williams using this bounding contour line in his work having a quick look now.

    http://orig10.deviantart.net/2880/f/...st-d5pq5kt.jpg
    http://img04.deviantart.net/53c5/i/2..._by_inkist.jpg
    http://orig05.deviantart.net/cf3a/f/...st-d5pq4z2.jpg
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-meZue0Lwzc...41298918_o.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Eran Aviani View Post
    I've seen bounding lines in many places and use them myself, especially on cast shadows. I find it helps differentiate them from shadows that define form.
    And you do this in the inking stage or the pencils?

  6. #6
    If it works do it. If not don't do it.

  7. #7
    I don't know if I'm embarrassed for you that you don't know the difference between peons and the gods or if I should simply dismiss your entire argument that you think Liefield and Eisner are in any way comparable.

    Is it a style choice? Yes! There are no guns to the heads here. We're not talking gravity or biology; forms of studies with actual laws. Reality has no holding line, shadows are not formed by ink strokes. Comic book art is an invented language and Eisner one of it's inventors. Will's buddy Lou Fine did it too and Lou begat: Frazetta, Gil Kane, Stan Drake, Neal Adams... I "invented" this technique in Mrs Bell's 5th grade class for a portrait of Ivan the Terrible. I have the original Barry Windsor Smith charcoal ruff for Kull#9 hanging right in front of me where he's done the exact same thing.

    Perusing my book shelf I can see: Alex Raymond, check; Hal Foster, check, Noel Sickles, check. Just thinking off the top of my head: Kubert, Jose Luis Salinas, Frazetta, Wally Wood, Reed Crandall, George Evans, Steranko, Wrightson, Catherine (Jeffrey) Jones, Nestor Redondo, Alfredo Alcala, Rudy Nebres, me, Katsuhiro Otomo, Art Adams... check. That's a timeline of comics art across four continents and there's NEVER been a time where this wasn't a staple.

    The artist wanted a hard cast shadow that wasn't black. Remove the holding line and it's no longer a hard cast shadow. The line didn't just accomplish A goal, it accomplished a very specific goal exactly as the artist intended. To argue that line is wrong is to argue lines aren't allowed in comics.

  8. #8
    Internet Heel smygba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    I don't know if I'm embarrassed for you that you don't know the difference between peons and the gods or if I should simply dismiss your entire argument that you think Liefield and Eisner are in any way comparable.
    Please, no personal attacks. Even if they are passive aggressive ones.

    Now, I have to correct you.

    I have not compared Mr Eisner to Mr Liefeld.

    I have compared your comment i.e. Will Eisner made a career doing that. to another potential situation in order to demonstrate that it is laden with tacit information. Therefore, I made a request for you to further elaborate on it.

    Formulaic-ally, this could have gone:

    smygba Posts: Post up example. Request opinion on what is viewed in example
    Smitty replies: <Insert Name> made a career doing that.

    Another applied example:

    smygba Posts: Post up of Marker Completed Page. Request opinion on what is viewed in example
    Smitty replies: Mike Mignola made a career doing that.

    Your original comment in and of itself does not say much about any of the internal representations you have. It disseminates a limited amount of information.

    I think you should make sure you understood the analogy before you try to insult someone online.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    Is it a style choice? Yes! ....

    The artist wanted a hard cast shadow that wasn't black. Remove the holding line and it's no longer a hard cast shadow. The line didn't just accomplish A goal, it accomplished a very specific goal exactly as the artist intended. To argue that line is wrong is to argue lines aren't allowed in comics.
    Your actual explanation is better and helpful.

    Comics / and inking in this case is not a science - it is led by schools of thought. (Unless you though the Marvel Way was how Manga is drawn?)

    So I thought there may be an accepted view on the topic.

    To say it accomplished a goal is subjective. It looked weird to me - hence I asked the question.

    Though you seem to be telling me its very widely used and accepted.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by smygba View Post
    Comics / and inking in this case is not a science - it is led by schools of thought.
    That's what I said. Repeating my statements back to me doesn't make me wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by smygba View Post
    (Unless you though the Marvel Way was how Manga is drawn?)
    You're telling the class that Akira is not manga? That Raymond, Foster, and Sickles, who all pre-date Timely, are Marvel artists? That Marvel and Manga is all there is?

    Quote Originally Posted by smygba View Post
    So I thought there may be an accepted view on the topic.
    The accepted view has always been that it's a universal staple. Since before the modern comic book was invented, by the people who invented the language, by it's greatest practitioners, over time and 5 continents (because I'm now throwing in Australia's Stanley Pitt, too) But, we're all wrong because ... Rob Liefield

    Your combative display of ignorance will win you no debates.

  10. #10
    Internet Heel smygba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    That's what I said. Repeating my statements back to me doesn't make me wrong.
    I am not trying to make you look wrong. I am trying to learn.
    If you think I am repeating you, be flattered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    You're telling the class that Akira is not manga? That Raymond, Foster, and Sickles, who all pre-date Timely, are Marvel artists? That Marvel and Manga is all there is?
    Out of context, again, no argument here from me. I am in alignment with your viewpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    The accepted view has always been that it's a universal staple. Since before the modern comic book was invented, by the people who invented the language, by it's greatest practitioners, over time and 5 continents (because I'm now throwing in Australia's Stanley Pitt, too) But, we're all wrong because ... Rob Liefield
    Okay. Now I know the accepted view.
    I am failing to see what Mr Liefeld has to do with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    Your combative display of ignorance will win you no debates.
    I am not in combat. As I said, I am here to learn.

    For some odd reason, it seems to me that you seem to think asking for more information is an act of aggression.

    I ask questions because I am ignorant in regards to Comic Book Art. I am also willing to accept that fact, come on here and ask questions.

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