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Thread: Dracula the Unconquered #4 pencils

  1. #11
    Pixel Jockey sdowner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MLaw View Post
    The storytelling is clear and the characters are charming. Page 3 you've got a weird 180 rule transition.. that's the only thing jumping out. I do wonder if you've left enough space for dialog in some of the panels though (no clue how much there is).
    The aforementioned candelabra on the table seems to disappear reappear and slide around.
    It seems like maybe the width of the table jumps around a little though I don't know if it's enough to be a big deal.
    The length of the candles definitely change.
    The width of the chair backs seems to change ever so slightly. Especially in relation to the female.
    The coat of arms to the right of the fireplace seems to change a bit in size and there's a panel where it feels out of perspective/depth with the room.
    The visual style of the candelabra feels inconsistent. In one panel it's ornate and wrapping and in another it's just stems.

    ^All of that is nitpicking because if I didn't I would just be posting even more compliments because .. seriously, damn. I've had to draw panels with that type of architecture and yours looks fantastic.. and it tracks well from panel to panel. It looks more like storyboards for a feature animation or animatics. Great work!
    Quote Originally Posted by MLaw View Post
    Ah.. one more thought. The pacing might be too "slow".. meaning the dinner conversation spread out over that many panels.. I had editors from Dark Horse and some indies tell me I broke my conversations down too far and to combine the panels if possible. I think it's going to depend on the book as I have read Sean Murphy books with panels like yours but a lot of big 2 books right now are going lighter on panel count.. I dunno.. not a critique so much as food for thought. I kinda wish there were editors floating about to ask about stuff like that.. I could ask some of the big 2 artists that sometimes reply for their thoughts on it if you are interested..
    Dude! Thanks so much. This is exactly the stuff I've been needing to hear.

    I thumbnailed the pages pretty carefully with room for dialogue, and I feel pretty confident that there's room for it to flow well.

    Everything you've said about the environment continuity feels spot-on. Especially the candelabra floating round; I meant it to be in the center of the table, and it's turned out to be a pain in the butt to keep it there. I deliberately deleted it on Page 5, last panel- it'd block all the important information if I had it in the frame in a way that's consistent.

    I'm not sure where you're seeing the 180 degree rule weirdness on Page 3? Could you elaborate on that?

    If you've got the bandwidth to run the pacing question past some pros, man, I'd be all ears! This first 7 pages or so do feel like a slow start. Page 8 and forward have a lot of great action to balance it, but I'd hate to bore a reader before we get that far.

  2. #12
    The Gozerian MLaw's Avatar
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    I'm glad it was helpful!
    I feel your pain.. I had a bowl of soup in front of a character in a thing I did.. and I drew it and thought okay.. looks good.. I went back and looked at it carefully the next day and it was changing size, position, etc.. When you have a bunch of panels where the character is in roughly the same spot, those continuity issues really creep in. I think you said you were involved in animation at one point (sorry if I'm wrong) but to me it's like the same idea as a moving hold. The longer you have a hold frame the weirder it gets. I did learn a trick for maintaining consistency in relationships of distance but it's kind of hard to explain without doing a really detailed tutorial.. To summarize, you take a visual reference from both scenes and create a grid from your vp off of the item in both panels. Scott Robertson describes it in his drawing book... I just tried to type out the rest and it sounded confusing as hell..

    The 180 thing... I typed up a long thing but it was getting long-winded and into things that really don't matter here.
    Hopefully this explains better than my words could've. Yes it's film but it's been widely accepted in comics AFAIK.

    We're establishing an action line based on her facing the right. We're keeping the vantage point in that same plane though and changing her facing. That's typically something we want to avoid. I think re-doing panel one with her walking towards us to keep the vantage "neutral" would help.. but that's just my opinion

    The character in the center also changes costume by removing their hat.. you might want to alter the third panel to have this character placing their hat on the chair so the change happens in panel.


    I'll reach out to a few people on the pacing and let you know what I hear.
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  3. #13
    I see no problem with the 180º rule on any page. In every panel of every page our heroine is always on the right our Villain is always on the left and little Miss Mxyzptlk remains forever in the middle. We know exactly where we are in every panel.

  4. #14
    The Gozerian MLaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    I see no problem with the 180º rule on any page. In every panel of every page our heroine is always on the right our Villain is always on the left and little Miss Mxyzptlk remains forever in the middle. We know exactly where we are in every panel.
    Does the 180 rule not deal with establishing facing and vantage points? That's how I see it presented in every book and video I've watched/read?
    I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it. ~Pablo Picasso

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  5. #15
    The 180 rule for storytelling is different than the 180 rule of geometry; It's not set in stone. For stories it's more of a suggestion and way of thinking. Having never gone to film school I may well have this wrong but, here's how I apply it in my own work: That which is left stays left, that which is right stays right.

    The top example moves our view 180º but the 180 rule is maintained because spidey starts and stays on the left, Bats starts and stays on the right. We may have moved but the characters did not. We know exactly where they are at all times.

    Bottom example only moves our view 5º but destroys the 180 rule. Flash runs left to right, then runs right to left without changing direction. WTF? Where are we? Where are we going? We don't know.



    Ha, lookie what I found. File names were just dissimilar enough that I got no "warning" when saving two things with the same name. No idea what the 180 vs 270 thing was. Probably a specific reference to the post I originally responded too but, again, we maintain the 180 rule even though the view changes radically from down shot, to up shot, from behind, from the front... It's not until Bats and Supes change places left to right that the 180 rule is broken.


  6. #16
    The Gozerian MLaw's Avatar
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    Sorry for the tangent SDowner
    Smitty - I found this video to be helpful in explaining the film school point of view on 180.. and the first place I heard it referenced for comics was an old Alvin Lee video where he basically said the same thing.
    Mind you, I'm not trying to contradict what you've said or anything but you mentioned having not gone to film school so I thought it might be something you'd be interested in. The absolute best example of it is in a camera work DVD I bought... which I obviously can't share but this one is pretty good by comparison.



    In panel 1 he has an established viewpoint and the character facing to the right. In the next panel the camera isn't in that different of a location but the female character is now facing to the left.. which in film school parlance means it needs a new establishing shot. That's why I suggested panel 1 be redrawn with a neutral vantage so he wouldn't have to re-plan the whole thing.

    All that aside, if the page looks good to your eye, I would toss out any rules more as suggestions as such.. If anyone would be a judge of what looks right, I would say that would be you

    On a side note.. Smitty.. are you aware of what editors look for in panel count for dialog heavy pages these days? So far the few guys currently working in the biz have not responded.
    Last edited by MLaw; 12-13-2016 at 11:38 PM.
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  7. #17
    Pixel Jockey sdowner's Avatar
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    Wow! Thanks for the awesome discussion on 180 degree rule and staging, guys.
    I really appreciate it.
    The rule as I've understood it from storyboarding and comics work is just the way Smitty describes. I know there are more formal nuances to it for cinematography but the gist of it seems to match up with the discussion here.
    I took a couple days away from pencils for this to try and teach myself Sketchup for the environment in this story. Several more pages take place in this castle hall, so it seemed efficient to build a model that I could drop in and polish by hand. We'll see if it's helpful or not.

    Here's Page 7!



    Thanks so much for the feedback so far. I'm going to be incorporating most of it into the art during the inks stage and as I draw upcoming pages!

  8. #18
    The Gozerian MLaw's Avatar
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    I really like the angle on panel 1 of the new page.

    On the 180 rule.. I think a lot of the differences come from the fact that one is dealing with a subject that is literally in motion as well as camera angles and movements. I'm just glad the chatter didn't annoy you
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  9. #19
    Bryan E.Warner's Avatar
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    I'm really liking this to me it has a Disney Feel.. I think Faking Castle interior should lead you too some Hammer flicks...or the Original Monster Movies...The Sets are not too complex...But are Cool....( I'm having issues with my Computer..) I'll return and check you out again..
    Keep that Pencil Busy!

  10. #20
    Love the pages.. I believe no 180 rule is broken in PG 3, PN 1 & 2..
    PN 1 she's walking towards the end of the table and PN 2 she sat down after turning around. No camera shift there..
    But I do agree PN 1 could be more wide & establishing shot because they are in the whole new location from the last page.
    (I was confused whereabouts at first)
    But still works.. still works... Keep up the good work!

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